Spread the Dialogue: MAryam Touzani & Mauro Macchioni in conversation with Caroline von Courten

The theme “Tomorrow is Today” of our current Der Greif Issue 18 triggered us to pick up this urgency, put out by its guest editor Hank Willis Thomas and to initiate a series of deeper conversations about taking progressive action in the now. Here is our first edition of “Spread the Dialogue”: the encounter on paper between MAryam Touzani and Mauro Macchioni, extended through a long conversation with our Artistic Director Caroline von Courten. Our will is to create an active space for community, where artists can dialogue and share similarities and differences in their practices and ways of seeing reality.

Read the blog to learn more about their practices and the dialogue and check out the short clip.

Caroline von Courten: To start, could you both introduce yourselves and the core philosophy behind your work? MAryam, let’s begin with you.

MAryam Touzani: I am an image-based artist currently based in Rotterdam and a 2023 graduate of the Royal Academy of Arts in The Hague. My work is deeply rooted in exploring diasporic identity, specifically the "existential rootlessness" that often accompanies being a child of immigrants. As a third-generation Moroccan in the Netherlands – my grandparents arrived in the 70s – I use photography to navigate the fractures between the two worlds I grew up in. Ultimately, my projects are a quest to understand the desire to belong and the complexities of where we call home.

Mauro Macchioni: I am from Naples, though my background is originally in anthropology, which I graduated in about 25 years ago. While my city is famous for its "ethnic" and vibrant personality, I actually prefer to move away from the specific aesthetics of Naples and the “clichés” embedded with it. I am more interested in the universal human being. I like to isolate my subjects from their context to find the common ground between different people and countries. My photography is a form of meditation, a way to stay in the present moment. I look for beauty and harmony in imperfection and in the places where there isn't much light. I believe that what we do today dictates how we will live tomorrow. For me, photography should explain the actions of the present to help us see who we could become: hopefully, a better version of ourselves. I prefer unposed, unstructured shots from ordinary life to capture the empathy and care that connect us all.

CVC: I’m curious about your first impressions when you encountered each other’s work. Hank Willis Thomas originally paired you together, but I’m interested in your personal reactions to that match. There is such a clear intergenerational dialogue here, combined with a shared deep interest with humanity. Do you remember that specific moment of seeing each other's work for the first time and thinking, "Oh, this is interesting".

MM: I was so excited because it felt like the images were truly "in shape" with one another. When I looked at them, I saw several shared elements. First, the human connection: MAryam’s image shows a man reflecting on his life and the passage of time, while mine captures two generations – an elderly woman holding a newborn, a new life. There is also a beautiful match in physical details like hands and of course the colors. Hank Willis Thomas did a fantastic move in pairing both the substance and the form. I truly believe these two pictures are stronger together than they are apart; they draw energy from one another. Side by side, they become something more.

MT: When I saw the pairing, I thought, "This makes perfect sense." As you said, Mauro, the colors match beautifully. My image is filled with detail – the landscape, the symbolism – whereas yours is a tight close-up. There is a balance there; yours feels like a 'filling in' of the emotion. You can feel the weight of history in both images. For my part, I work a lot with landscapes. This specific image is staged; the man you see represents my grandfather. He has passed away, so I wanted to imagine him working in this Dutch landscape, surrounded by the 'cliché' of the Netherlands, the tulips, where he spent decades of his life. He is wearing his own 'djellaba', the traditional outer robe or dress with full sleeves that is worn in the Maghreb region of North Africa. It was truly a way for me to reconnect with him. I think it is really beautiful that Mauro’s and my work are positioned together although we are kind of opposites in the sense of our histories or who we are and what drives us in photography. But the fact that we were placed together and that it works; that the two images become kind of a whole image together. I think that's what really touched me.

MM: To me, this is the magic of art and communication: the ability to find a shared ‘chemistry’ or state of mind with a stranger through an image. While our styles differ, mine relies on an intense, unposed physical proximity to capture the raw tension and energy of a moment, our works share the same underlying mood. The image featured in the magazine is part of my project “Handle with Care,” which explores our deep, modern need for human contact and empathy. I avoid using a zoom lens because I need to be close enough to feel the scene's energy; if I were to ask for permission or stage the shot, that vital tension would vanish, leaving the image flat. Although working this closely in public can sometimes lead to conflict with bystanders, it is a necessary price to pay to capture a "better version of ourselves" and the quiet, authentic details of human life. And I see the anthropology I studied reflected in MAryam’s work: the roots, the family, and the country. It is beautiful, poetic, and full of heart. While our photographic styles are very different, our spirits are the same: we both focus on care, family, the human being, and the vital importance of memory.

MT: Indeed, my work is driven by a need to understand my origins as a way to move forward. This is central to my project “How to Tame a Wild Tongue,” which explores the loss of my mother tongue, Tamazight, or the indigenous language of Morocco, resulting from my upbringing in the Netherlands and the complex colonial history of Morocco itself. By investigating this "identity crisis" and the fractures in my own heritage, I hope to foster a better understanding of how we can all coexist in a world of migration and global interaction. Like Mauro, I am drawn to the authenticity of the moment; I recognize that if you stop to ask for permission, you lose the very essence of a scene that can never be recreated. And being a woman in Morocco without knowing the language adds a layer of vulnerability that’s hard to describe. Your work, Mauro, challenged my preconceptions about connection. I used to think intimacy required a conversation, but your photography perhaps proves otherwise. There is a tangible closeness in your images that suggests a deep bond with the subject: one formed not through words, but through the powerful, steady presence of your lens. You 'tricked' me into realizing that a camera can create a relationship just as real as a spoken one.

CVC: Have either of you experienced a moment where a specific image or an entire series sparked an entirely unexpected reaction? For our team and many external readers, your spread has already made a huge impact: it triggers these deep associations and really gestures toward a new way of seeing 'tomorrow.' I’m curious if there are other instances where your work ignited a specific conversation or affected someone in a way you never anticipated?

MM: Regarding the future, I find it fascinating how art creates invisible threads between people; for instance, I recently discovered a deep, unspoken connection with a close friend simply because our photographs shared the same 'feeling' before we even knew each other’s work. This realization, that our images act as seeds planted in a field, is what truly matters. We may never know how many people we inspire or how many connections we spark, but the scale isn't the point; the authenticity of the gesture is. Especially in the difficult times we are living through, our work serves as a moral attitude, a way to be better humans by creating a “good mood” or an imaginative space for what tomorrow could be. By being human first and photographers second, our images today aren't just records; they are the necessary goals we set to help us visualize, and eventually reach, a more hopeful future.

CVC: It’s true that you often don't know what your work sparks once it leaves your hands. That’s exactly why we strive to champion your photography and pass along the impact it has on others through featuring it in the issue, as an Artist Feature or like in this conversation for Spread the Dialogue. It needs to be spread! And dialogues to be enlarged that precede or follow your photos. There is something incredibly generous about the way you both – and artists in general – put a gesture out into the world to share your perspective with us. You aren't there to stand next to the viewer or the reader; you simply offer your intention and your work, trusting the response to happen in your absence. MAryam, your work has this incredible international resonance because it goes beyond simple observation and it touches something deeper, something universal. I imagine, there is often a sense of mutual recognition in both your images; as a viewer, I feel like I understand you, and in reverse I feel understood by you. Even when I can't find the exact words for it, your work creates a connection that makes the viewer feel seen, as if a silent conversation is happening across the distance.

MT: It feels like a stroke of luck, yet there’s a deliberate power in the way Hank Willis Thomas curated these images. By placing our works side-by-side, he created a third layer of meaning, a dialogue where our individual perspectives coexist and evolve. It’s fascinating that someone who didn't know our personal histories could see that hidden thread and choose to make our visions inhabit the same space.

CVC: In the turbulent times we are living through, I believe these encounters, whether between people or between works of art that seemingly have nothing to do with one another, are absolutely crucial. We must continue to meet, to talk, and to immerse ourselves in worlds different from our own. It requires a specific kind of openness, rooted in the honesty and empathy that Mauro mentioned. Ultimately, these interactions are what we must cherish most: the ability to move beyond our specific backgrounds or roots to find a point of connection. I recently read a book that deeply nourished my thinking on this, specifically regarding the “politics of love.” It echoes the ideas of Hannah Arendt, whose bodies of works I am just beginning to explore, and the concept of love as a fundamental vehicle for navigating the world. One idea in particular stayed with me: the idea that we are called to love others not because we necessarily like them or agree with them, but because we recognize them as being just as human as ourselves. It’s about a radical, shared humanity, an intentional attitude where the act of loving the other serves as the bridge between our differences, allowing us to coexist even in a fractured political landscape.

MM: It is truly the only strength we have. That is why the future is rooted in the present; today, we must strive to be the best versions of ourselves. I like to think of it as being a 'good virus', spreading empathy and humanity to counteract the surreal and difficult situation surrounding us. If we remain aware, we can still find beauty, harmony, and strength, even when it feels impossible. It isn’t easy, but there is a profound dignity in fighting these hard moments with nothing but a camera and the radical will to remain human.